A Reading Odyssey

Homer-1 Audio Recording December 7 2009 Books 17-24

Here's the audio recording for the Homer-1 Books 17-24 call.  Listen online or download the mp3 file and listen to it as a podcast on your ipod.

Download Homer-1 Dec 09 books 17-24

Homer-2 December 2009 Books 17-24 audio recording

Homer2009-2-Dec-7-09-Bks17-24

Here's the audio for our conference call on December 7, 2009 to discuss the final books of Homer's "Odyssey."  A very enjoyable discussion, and a great way to wrap up an enjoyable read.   Thanks to all of you! -Pat

The Underworld and Justice in Homer

Hi Andre,

I had a question not directly related to the Odyssey story, but when I was reading over the glossary of names in the back of the book, I came upon Rhadamanthus who was granted eternal life in the Elysian fields because he was a fair king.   I had forgotten about the Elysian Fields, and I don't know much about entry requirements to this much more preferable place than Hades.  Why is it that 'fair' mortal heroes like Achilles don't end up in the Elysian Fields?  Do you know?

Pauline

 

Hi Pauline,

The Greco-Roman variations on belief in the after-life differ from legend to legend.  Although there was never any official orthodoxy concerning the underworld, most ancient Greeks and Romans still believed in a sort of after-life.  As legends grew concerning the underworld, various places of punishment or peace were attributed to the realm of Hades and Persephone.  One was the Elysian fields mentioned in Homer (Od. 4.  561-9) and Hesiod (Op. 167-73), "as the place to which certain favoured heroes, exempted from death, are translated by the gods.  Elysium appears to be a survival from Minoan religion" (The Oxford Classical Dictionary).  After Homer and Hesiod, other Greco-Roman writers like Vergil embellish the realm of Hades with all kinds of areas for certain people due to their actions on earth.  Dante was inspired by Vergil and interpolated Book VI of the Aeneid into his own Inferno making up a third of his Divine Comedy.  But going back to Homer, it is hard to see anything clear about what the underworld was, and why certain heroes were favored.  Achilles, Agamemnon etc. all share the same basic fate in the Odyssey regardless of their status on earth.  That says quite a lot in itself.  If the gods were said to choose certain heroes to be blessed (i.e. Hercules was said to have been immortalized and brought to Olympus itself), then it shows how arbitrary the gods could be when they wanted.  Justice (if any) is hard to see rationally at this point.

Andre

 

I think it makes sense that we wouldn't see justice in these depictions from Homer.  The Gods in Homer are behind things like the weather, the ocean, and things of chance like the tide in battle.  The Gods are seen as being behind unexpected events like a small military force somehow beating a larger military force.  The weather, the elements, the ocean, and turns of chance do not follow any rules of justice so the Gods arbitrary behavior is a reflection of the arbitrary nature of our world.  For example, why are good people sometimes killed in a boat when an expected storm blows up and their boat is sunk?  Such people don't deserve that but it happens all the time in an arbitrary way in our world.  There are others who get away with murder and don't come across any misfortunes.  Justice itself does not occur naturally in nature; it's a human abstract concept.

 

 Jim

Next and final conference call for Homer

Hope your Thanksgiving was bountiful and that your reading has been enjoyable. I just want to remind you about our upcoming final conference call for Homer's Odyssey next week: Monday Dec 7, @8pm EST.

Please look over our Study Guide Questions which were sent out earlier in November, and are also posted on the Reading Odyssey website, to help guide your reading and thinking about this great epic.  We will be discussing the conclusion to the Odyssey and Odysseus' revenge on the suitors as well as reunion with his wife Penelope. Please join us as we wrap up this classic.

Remember that the following Monday Dec 14 will be a special recitation by none other than Stanley Lombardo. 

Register here: 
http://Lombardo2009.eventbrite.com 

Also, I will be leading a Xenophon reading group in January and we will be using the newly published Landmark Hellenika. Xenophon picks up where Thucydides leaves off, thus finishing a narrative of the Peloponnesian War, then narrating events of Greek city-states in the 4th cent. BC leading up to Philip of Macedon.  This is a great bridge to Alexander the Great's eventual campaigns.  Later in 2010, special events relating to the 2500 year anniversary of the battle of Marathon will be scheduled.  We will also be leading a Herodotus reading group sometime in September of 2010.

Register here for the Xenophon reading group:
http://xenophon2010-1.eventbrite.com

Andre

ut ager quamvis fertilis sine cultura fructuosus esse non potest, sic sine doctrina animus. "Just as a field, however fertile, cannot be fruitful without cultivation, so the mind cannot be productive without education." -Cicero

Homer Odyssey Books 17-24 Study Guide Questions

Homer Odyssey

Study Guide Questions  - Discussion #3

Books 17-24: Revenge

17-20 Odysseus and Telemachus return to the palace in imminent danger

1.  Book 17 - Omens

As Odysseus first sets eyes on his own palace after 20 years, what are the ways that he is tested by Athena?  How much restraint is Odysseus forced to show?  Why?  How do the two omens in Book 17 work with respect to each other (i.e. Theoclymenus’ prophecy and Telemachus’ sneeze)?

2.  Book 18 - King of the Beggars

What does the fight between Irus and Odysseus symbolize/foretell?  Book 18 can be said to be important for Amphinomus, one of the suitors.  What part does he play in the rivalry between Odysseus and the rest of the suitors?  Why is his part necessary to the story?  Penelope’s timed appearance is significant here.  How does it heighten the mounting tension of the story?  How does Eurymachus’ quarrel with Odysseus at the end of Book 18 balance that of Odysseus’ fight with Irus at the beginning?

3.  Book 19 - Tease

The reunion of Odysseus and Penelope is somewhat of a tease.  How is Odysseus able to hold back his feelings?  Is he testing Penelope?  If so, why should he?  Why is Penelope so steadfast against believing that Odysseus will come back?

4.  Book 20 - Gods and Prophecies

For all of Odysseus’ cleverness and fortitude, he still requires encouragement to stick with his disguise until it is time for him to reveal himself.  At what two points do the gods respond to him?  How manifest are these divine responses to the situation at hand?  What is Odysseus’ main concern in Book 20?  What is Penelope’s?  How do these two differ, yet overlap?

Books 21-24: The contest of the bow and ultimate revenge on the suitors

5.  Book 21 - Contest of the Bow

With Athena prompting Penelope to announce the contest of the bow, the revenge on the suitors is set into motion.  How much of this plan is Odysseus in control of?  What is Penelope’s role in this overall plan?  What is Telemachus’ role in the plan?  Could the plan come together without Eumaeus’ or Philoetus’ help?  According to the text of Book 21, in what parts does Athena actively instigate events?

6.  Book 22 - Anger Unleashed

Although Odysseus’ anger is justified, shouldn’t he have taken Eurymachus’ offer for compensation after Antinous was killed?  Wouldn’t that have made sense in light of the family feuds and revenge killings that are sure to follow?  Why does Athena let Odysseus struggle in combat with the suitors for as long as she does?  Why does she show the "aegis" when she does, thereby making the suitors flee (p. 345), but not sooner?  In the midst of the killing, Leodes the soothsayer begs for mercy.  Leodes was the first to try the bow on p. 326 and foresaw this calamity, but Odysseus still kills him anyway.  Why?  Phemius the bard also begs for mercy, but he and Medon the herald are spared.   Why?  Are the punishments of the serving women and Melanthius just or too harsh?　

7.  Book 23 - Aftermath of Slaughter

Ironically, Penelope wakes up from a "sweet sleep" (line 17, p. 353).  Why is she now, all of a sudden, blessed with a "sweet sleep"?  Why does Penelope continue to hold back from believing that Odysseus has returned?  If Odysseus himself hadn’t killed the suitors, as she says, then who does she believe has killed them?  Why would this be frightening to her rather than happy?   How is Penelope finally convinced that this stranger is her husband?  Penelope finally recognizes Odysseus as her long-lost husband and Homer uses a simile to describe the moment (p. 360).  What does the simile show about the relationship between Penelope and Odysseus?

8.  Book 24 - Shades and Judgment

Book 24 opens by recalling some of the shades in Hades we met in Book 11.  Some commentators say that Agamemnon’s and Achilles’ conversation is out of place here.  Is it or is it not?  Why does Odysseus continue to put on a false front with his father, even after the suitors have been killed?   Eupeithes, Antinous’ father rouses up the Ithacans against Odysseus.   What sort of threat is posed to Odysseus and his family?  Zeus makes an irrevocable judgment of the situation on Ithaca.  How does Athena respond to what Zeus says?  Why must Zeus throw a thunderbolt?  What does the situation on Ithaca show about the Greeks in general? about the Greeks at Troy?

Homer-1 November 2009 Books 9-16 audio recording

Here is the audio recording for the Homer-1 books 9-16 call on November 2, 2009.  Listen online or download the mp3 file on your pod and listen to it as a podcast.

Download Homer-1 Nov 09 books 9-16

Homer and Darwin reading groups this week

Tonight we have two sections of Homer meeting by phone to discuss this month's reading of The Odyssey - Books 9 - 16.

Tomorrow night, Tuesday, the Darwin reading group is meeting to talk about chapters 3 and 4 in the Origin of Species. 

And the Aristotle reading group is finishing its year of reading with Rhetoric and Poetics. 

Good week for the reading groups.

On another note, we have open registration for two reading groups starting January 2010:

- The Landmark Xenophon's Hellenika

Free sign-up here (for first-time readers): 
http://Xenophon2010.eventbrite.com

- Homer's Odyssey

Free sign-up here (for first-time readers): 
http://Homer2010-1.eventbrite.com

Phil 

Homer Odyssey - Books 9-16 Study Guide Questions

Study Guide Questions  - Discussion #2 Books 9 - 16 Reconciliations

9-12 Odysseus’ wanderings, “reconciling” Poseidon’s curse

1. Book 9 - wise leader?

Odysseus is often referred to as “wily, crafty and wise.”  How wise of a leader is he in the events of Book 9 concerning the Cicones (pp. 126-127), Lotus Eaters (127), and Cyclopes (128-140)?  How much of these hardships are Odysseus’ own fault?  How much of these hardships are pre-determined by prophecy?

Comments by Mark Casey on Book 7 of the Odyssey

Question:  In book 7, Odysseus is carefully counseled by two women (one a princess, the other a goddess) in how to approach Queen Arete.  How is hospitality defined according to Odysseus’ experience at the palace in Phaeacia?  How does it compare to Telemachus’ experience earlier at Pylos and Sparta?  How does it compare to the scenes at Ithaca in Odysseus’ own palace with the suitors?

The model for hospitality in Phaeacia seems to be one in which the stranger first acts as a supplicant,

and only then is rewarded with hospitality.  In Pylos and Sparta, however, hospitality is given immediately, without the stranger having had to be a supplicant first.

Evidence of the supplicant model in Phaeacia: 

Odysseus is advised by both Nausicaa and Athena to throw himself around Queen Arete's knees (presumably this is done while he is on his knees).  When Odysseus does so, he pleads with the Queen, saying "I come in great distress; grant me but this: a speedy passage home, for I have suffered."  ("Grant me this" is the sort of thing you say when you're begging.)  After making his plea, he sits in the ashes near the hearth, like a beggar or other low status person would.  Also, later in the chapter when Queen Arete is talking to Odysseus, she criticizes Nausicaa saying, "my daughter was out of line in not bringing you here to our house... since you went to her first as a suppliant."

Evidence of the "immediate generosity" model in Pylos

:  When Nestor and his sons saw Telemachus, they "all crowded around, clasping their hands in welcome, and inviting them to sit down.  The hosts are proactive, welcoming, warm, and generous.  Nestor's son Peisistratus reaches out to Telemachus on his own initiative; by contrast Lord Alcinous had to tell his son to rise from his chair to make room for Odysseus.  Peisistratus offers Telemachus food and wine; by contrast Lord Alcinous has servants offer Odysseus food and wine.  Peisistratus tells Telemachus to say the ritual prayers to Poseidon; by contrast the elder Echeneus tells Alcinous to tell others to get the prayers going.  Telemachus describes himself as "on my knees" to Nestor, but that is a figure of speech; by contrast Odysseus was really on his knees with Arete.

Evidence of the "immediate generosity" model in Sparta

:  Menelaus insists hospitality be shown to Telemachus, and is displeased at Eteoneus's suggestion that they might let the strangers find hospitality elsewhere.  There is no supplication here.  Telemachus and Nestor get bathed, rubbed down, clothed in nice clothing, and asked to sit beside Menelaus.  They are invited to eat before being inquired of.

• Why the difference in the two models
?  I'm speculating here, but here are a few guesses:

• The Phaecaians seem to be not quite human.
I'm not sure of their exact lineage, but Alcinous describes them as being "kin" to the gods, "just like the Cyclopes and savage Giants."  He also says the gods normally show themselves directly to the Phaeacians.  A god would expect someone to supplicate before receiving hospitality.

• The Phaeacians seem not to have had to depend on the kindness of strangers as much as others have
.  They live on this isolated island with their magic ships.  Menelaus mentions that he has many times received hospitality elsewhere, and that is one of the reasons he wants to make sure he offers good hospitality to Telemachus.  I wonder how many times these isolated Phaeacians have had to depend on others.

• The Phaeacians seem to be a surlier people.  Nausicaa worries that the "insolent louts in this town" will recognize Odysseus is a stranger and insult her for (1) keeping the company of a strange many before her wedding day and (2) having turned up her nose at the Phaeacians who wooed me."  Similarly, Athena advises Odysseus that he should be quiet, not look at anyone or talk to strangers, because people here aren't tolerant of strangers or welcoming; they trust only in their ships.

Homer 2009-1 Books 1-8 Oct 5 09 - audio recording

Here's the Group 1 audio recording for the Homer Odyssey Books 1-8 call on Mon October 5, 2009.  Listen online or download the mp3 file so you can listen to it as a podcast on your ipod.

Download Homer 2009-1 Books 1-8 Oct 5 09 - audio recording